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View Full Version : Are today's Greeks in Greece partially Avar?(Turkic+Slavic?)


Partizan
10-06-2010, 02:25 PM
In a Turkish political newspaper called TürkSolu(Turkish Left),a historician author,Prof.Dr.Şener Üşümezsoy wrote something about that.According to this article,Turkic Avars with their Slavic subjects invaded Greece and exiled all "Hellens" to islands.Greece was desserted and later,Turkic Avars and their Slavic subjects settled there...According to Morenot,"Heathen Avars came and invaded whole region,Mora,Thesselia and Epirus.They exiled people to islands(...)"
Full article(in Turkish):
http://www.turksolu.org/297/usumezsoy297.htm
Maps:
Byzantine Map:
http://www.turksolu.org/297/foto/roma-imparatorlugu1.jpg
Avar and Lombard invasions:
http://www.turksolu.org/297/foto/roma-imparatorlugu2.jpg

Sikeliot
10-06-2010, 10:04 PM
For whatever it's worth, there are a significant number of Greeks I've seen (pictures and real life) who look what one would call "Slavic" as opposed to the more stereotypical Mediterranean look others have.

Heraus
10-06-2010, 10:10 PM
My personal opinion based on facts I know :

1. There's a distinct Greek look and on average, the Greeks do differ from their Slavic neighbours.

2. If anything, central Greece was repopulated by Albanians : Athens was Albanian-speaking before being the capital of independent Greece.

3. Greece has been denying for years that its northern regions have known traditional Slavic settlements for centuries.

Raven
10-06-2010, 10:14 PM
No I don't think Greece is Slavic. Even Macedonia is hardly Slavic (looking).

Sikeliot
10-06-2010, 10:21 PM
There's a distinct Greek look and on average


There's not, as far as I can see. Post pictures?

Kyte
10-06-2010, 10:42 PM
There's not, as far as I can see. Post pictures?

I think there is too, not incredibly different from surrounding populations but I do think the national football team represents the Greek phenotype well, and sets it slightly apart from others.

http://www.soccer.gr/multimedia/wallpapers/national/hellas_1024x768.jpg

Goupil
10-07-2010, 08:26 AM
It's little known that Modern Balkan national identities are as "artificial" as Turkish one : Greek "jacobinism" hellenized Christian-Orthodox Albanians (Arvanites), Macedonian Slavs and Aromanians (Tzintzars) while expelling Muslims (even Greek-speaking), and that since 1830.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 08:39 AM
I just know Greeks are white not wogs... they have pale-white skin and lots have non-black hair and eyes

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 08:40 AM
It's little known that Modern Balkan national identities are as "artificial" as Turkish one : Greek "jacobinism" hellenized Christian-Orthodox Albanians (Arvanites), Macedonian Slavs and Aromanians (Tzintzars) while expelling Muslims (even Greek-speaking), and that since 1830.

Serbian Identity is not artificial at least not as the turkish one... Turks are much more mixed... Serbs are Serbs Slaviciized Balkanid+ OG Slav...

Heraus
10-07-2010, 08:50 AM
Serbian Identity is not artificial at least not as the turkish one... Turks are much more mixed... Serbs are Serbs Slaviciized Balkanid+ OG Slav...
Serbian identity is very recent. Dubrovnik was said to be Serbian ...

Ponto
10-07-2010, 08:50 AM
There are Greeks and there are Greeks. I have worked with Greeks who spanned the whole spectrum of Greek looks from the fair Slavic Balkan look to the dark looks mostly associated with Greeks. To use the skin color theme of another thread, from pinkoid to caramel. Also in Australia a lot of Greeks have come out! As slavic speaking, they call themselves Macedonians because they come from the north of Greece not FYROM.

Ponto
10-07-2010, 08:51 AM
Serbian identity is very recent. Dubrovnik was said to be Serbian ...

I have been to Dubrovnik, it is in Croatia.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 08:53 AM
Serbian identity is very recent. Dubrovnik was said to be Serbian ...

I dont mean the serbian borders today but the serbian nation/ethnicity

Goupil
10-07-2010, 08:55 AM
Christian-Orthodox Aromanians/Tzintzars were serbianized in 19th century and there are certainly other examples of acculturation.

Balkan nationalisms (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria) in 19th century were based on religious identity i. e. ex-Ottoman Millet. And if Turks are more "mixed", it's also because these Orthodox nationalists expelled various Muslim populations during the decline of Ottoman Empire.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 08:57 AM
Christian-Orthodox Aromanians/Tzintzars were serbianized in 19th century and there are certainly other examples of acculturation.

Balkan nationalisms (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria) in 19th century were based on religious identity i. e. ex-Ottoman Millet. And if Turks are more "mixed", it's also because these Orthodox nationalists expelled various Muslim populations during the decline of Ottoman Empire.

But those are all white ethnicities, so serbs are not mixed while turks are mixed with orgiinal turks(turanids-central asian caucasoid/mongoloid hybrids) and with brown arabs and kurds...the french are also mixed celtic/germanic/roman etc... in france the gaelics lived and the romans came and it was frankish once so i could say its artificial, germans are also known to have much slavic ancestry

Einherjar
10-07-2010, 09:01 AM
germans are also known to have much slavic ancestry

Really?I never heard that before.Surely there are some Slavic blood flowing throught but having MUCH slavic ancestry isnt a bit exaggerated?

Ponto
10-07-2010, 09:02 AM
The Avars, the historic ones not the ones from Daghestan, were Turkic speaking. They spent most of their time in Hungary. A couple of Croatian Islands are supposed to have Avar admix but Greece, probably not.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 09:08 AM
Really?I never heard that before.Surely there are some Slavic blood flowing throught but having MUCH slavic ancestry isnt a bit exaggerated?

no its not exaggerated, parts of germany and austria are full of slavic blood, especially austria.... just look at the austrian surnames how many are slavic (slovak/czech/slovenian)... eastern-germans also have much slavic blood from ancient times

Heraus
10-07-2010, 09:17 AM
I have been to Dubrovnik, it is in Croatia.
What I mean is that before the creation of the Serbian and Croatian identities (mostly based on religion as they speak the same language), Dubrovnik was said to be Serbian. Croatia and Serbia are concepts from the 1850s, the only true division used to be between the coastal Romance people and the Serbo-Croats. Let's notice that nearly all Balkanic identities were defined on religious kinship.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 09:39 AM
What I mean is that before the creation of the Serbian and Croatian identities (mostly based on religion as they speak the same language), Dubrovnik was said to be Serbian. Croatia and Serbia are concepts from the 1850s, the only true division used to be between the coastal Romance people and the Serbo-Croats. Let's notice that nearly all Balkanic identities were defined on religious kinship.

Yeah the Serbo-Croat-Bosnian idenitities are artificial.

Ponto
10-07-2010, 09:41 AM
no its not exaggerated, parts of germany and austria are full of slavic blood, especially austria.... just look at the austrian surnames how many are slavic (slovak/czech/slovenian)... eastern-germans also have much slavic blood from ancient times

People seem to forget about the Sorbs and the Wends in Germany.

Heraus, religion is a big divider. Maltese people would naturally gravitate towards Italians because they are Roman Catholic and of the same version. Irish Roman Catholicism is quite different from the Latin version. In the Balkans the divisor is religion, language and culture.

Heraus
10-07-2010, 09:55 AM
Heraus, religion is a big divider. Maltese people would naturally gravitate towards Italians because they are Roman Catholic and of the same version. Irish Roman Catholicism is quite different from the Latin version. In the Balkans the divisor is religion, language and culture.
When French protestants got the idea that they were a Nation and aimed at building a State around La Rochelle, they were crushed.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 09:56 AM
When French protestants got the idea that they were a Nation and aimed at building a State around La Rochelle, they were crushed.

Yugoslavia wanted to crush the seperatists too but were punished by the NATO for it

Partizan
10-07-2010, 01:51 PM
My personal opinion based on facts I know :

1. There's a distinct Greek look and on average, the Greeks do differ from their Slavic neighbours.

2. If anything, central Greece was repopulated by Albanians : Athens was Albanian-speaking before being the capital of independent Greece.

3. Greece has been denying for years that its northern regions have known traditional Slavic settlements for centuries.

Northern Greeks look more slavic than other Greeks.About Albanian heritage,yes.Even heroes of the famous "1821" were Albanians(Arvanite),like Kollokotroni.

I just know Greeks are white not wogs... they have pale-white skin and lots have non-black hair and eyes
I don't agree...Greeks look really dark,except the ones from Northern Greece(Slav hybrids).I think non-Slav mixed Greeks look like a line between SE Europe and Levant.

There are Greeks and there are Greeks. I have worked with Greeks who spanned the whole spectrum of Greek looks from the fair Slavic Balkan look to the dark looks mostly associated with Greeks. To use the skin color theme of another thread, from pinkoid to caramel. Also in Australia a lot of Greeks have come out! As slavic speaking, they call themselves Macedonians because they come from the north of Greece not FYROM.

I would never guess it but...I totally agree with you,Ponto.Greeks are diverse but generally Med looking.I even saw some slanted eyed,Turanid influenced greeks.

Yeah the Serbo-Croat-Bosnian idenitities are artificial.

I don't think so,both of those nations had kingdoms in Medieval.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 03:27 PM
I don't agree...Greeks look really dark,except the ones from Northern Greece(Slav hybrids).I think non-Slav mixed Greeks look like a line between SE Europe and Levant.

What do you mean with dark? Dark hair or dark skin? I know greeks have usually darker hair but not dark skin. They are pale-white and have light brown eyes usually






I don't think so,both of those nations had kingdoms in Medieval.

In medieval the different german tribes also had their kindgoms like prussia, bavaria etc. but they are one people

PlanAustral
10-07-2010, 03:56 PM
Really?I never heard that before.Surely there are some Slavic blood flowing throught but having MUCH slavic ancestry isnt a bit exaggerated?

This is from the History of Berlin wiki article, it looks like many eastern germans may be germanized slavs

# 6th century onwards: A certain cultural cluster (i.e. Prague-Korczak culture) of Slavic tribes from the east start moving into the sparsely populated area between the Elbe and Oder rivers.
# About 720: Two Slavic tribes settled in the Berlin region. The Hevelli settled on the river Havel with their central settlement in Brandenburg, which gave the name for the whole territory. The Sprevane settled close to the river Spree in today's district of Berlin-Köpenick.
# About 750: The Hevelli founded Spandow (today's Spandau) on the river Havel. This seems to be the closest settlement to the area which is today known as Berlin.
# About 825: Spandau and Köpenick were protected with barriers. They were the major settlements and later towns in the area until the early 11th century.
# Early 9th century: Slavic tribes settle in vicinity of later city Berlin.
# 948: Emperor Otto I the Great established German control over the now largely Slavic inhabitants of the area and founded the dioceses of Havelberg and Brandenburg...................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Berlin#Early_history

Costeño
10-07-2010, 04:34 PM
There's not, as far as I can see. Post pictures?

You must have very little experience with Slavs and Greeks.

Sikeliot
10-07-2010, 08:51 PM
You must have very little experience with Slavs and Greeks.


I wasn't saying there is no difference between Slavs and Greeks, I was saying that I cannot identify a unique "Greek" look that stands out as being uniquely Greek.

Heraus
10-07-2010, 10:47 PM
I wasn't saying there is no difference between Slavs and Greeks, I was saying that I cannot identify a unique "Greek" look that stands out as being uniquely Greek.
See Rethymno (http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3671) for instance. But you're right that Albanians (http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2855) can be similar.

Sikeliot
10-07-2010, 10:54 PM
See Rethymno (http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3671) for instance. But you're right that Albanians (http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2855) can be similar.


Albanians and Greeks, despite the fact that both groups deny it, do look very close.

Kyte
10-07-2010, 11:25 PM
Albanians and Greeks, despite the fact that both groups deny it, do look very close.

Albanians look more Balkan on average though, wouldn't you agree?

Sikeliot
10-07-2010, 11:32 PM
Albanians look more Balkan on average though, wouldn't you agree?

Balkan as opposed to what?

I agree that they have differences on average but there is a lot of overlap, too.

Kyte
10-07-2010, 11:36 PM
Balkan as opposed to what?

I agree that they have differences on average but there is a lot of overlap, too.

Balkan as opposed to mainland Greek, which is distinguishable from nations such as Macedonia and Albania.

Sikeliot
10-07-2010, 11:46 PM
Balkan as opposed to mainland Greek, which is distinguishable from nations such as Macedonia and Albania.


I must not be too familiar with how Greeks look because when I see one, I usually mistake them at first for something else.

Inquiring Mind
10-07-2010, 11:59 PM
Albanians look more Balkan on average though, wouldn't you agree?

I dont know who looks more balkan but greeks certainly look european. If i see a Greek i usually just think "some european" i dont know he is a greek

Kyte
10-08-2010, 12:01 AM
I must not be too familiar with how Greeks look because when I see one, I usually mistake them at first for something else.

I agree Greeks generally won't strike you instantly as Greek but the stereotypical Dinarid phenotype of the Balkans is less common in Greece, I believe. That is the difference I was going off.

Inquiring Mind
10-08-2010, 12:04 AM
I agree Greeks generally won't strike you instantly as Greek but the stereotypical Dinarid phenotype of the Balkans is less common in Greece, I believe. That is the difference I was going off.

Yeah Greeks are less dinarid more alpinid and med true

Sikeliot
10-08-2010, 12:04 AM
I agree Greeks generally won't strike you instantly as Greek but the stereotypical Dinarid phenotype of the Balkans is less common in Greece, I believe. That is the difference I was going off.


I usually mistake Greeks for being southern Italian on one hand or Bulgarian on the other. I think if I saw more of them I'd eventually be able to differentiate.

gr2001
10-19-2010, 08:50 AM
Albanians and Greeks, despite the fact that both groups deny it, do look very close.

South Albanians (Tosks) look almost the same with Greek Epirotans, north or south. While north Akbanians (Ghegs), not all, tend to have some exotic, northern looks, very Slavic. So they either look very close or very far.

A north-looking Albanian (in the middle) and 2 south-looking:

http://www.albanianphotos.net/images/photos/parade%2009%20013.JPG

What do you mean with dark? Dark hair or dark skin? I know greeks have usually darker hair but not dark skin. They are pale-white and have light brown eyes usually

You would easily pass for a Greek here btw.

T-Dominator
10-19-2010, 10:40 AM
I don't know this Greek matter but Avar blood in Croatians is a real fact.

Partizan
10-19-2010, 02:29 PM
I don't know this Greek matter but Avar blood in Croatians is a real fact.

Yeah...As I heard,Serbs also have Avar blood a lil bit,right?

T-Dominator
10-19-2010, 03:07 PM
Yeah...As I heard,Serbs also have Avar blood a lil bit,right?

Hahahah that would be a revilement against Avar bloodline. :D However, I don't know actually whether Serbs have Avar blood or not.

Partizan
10-19-2010, 03:12 PM
Hahahah that would be a revilement against Avar bloodline. :D However, I don't know actually whether Serbs have Avar blood or not.

Yeah...I think I'd suicide if I'd learn I was genetical cousin of Zupan :D
He wouldn't like being related to an "N carrier Mong" like me also :D

OxxStone
10-19-2010, 03:21 PM
Northern Greeks look more slavic than other Greeks.About Albanian heritage,yes.Even heroes of the famous "1821" were Albanians(Arvanite),like Kollokotroni.


I don't agree...Greeks look really dark,except the ones from Northern Greece(Slav hybrids).I think non-Slav mixed Greeks look like a line between SE Europe and Levant.



I would never guess it but...I totally agree with you,Ponto.Greeks are diverse but generally Med looking.I even saw some slanted eyed,Turanid influenced greeks.



I don't think so,both of those nations had kingdoms in Medieval.


The majority of Greeks are Eastern Mediterranean in appearance. Most of the Greek population has Near Eastern DNA markers.

Partizan
10-19-2010, 03:36 PM
The majority of Greeks are Eastern Mediterranean in appearance. Most of the Greek population has Near Eastern DNA markers.

As I know they have R1a also...R1a is common among Slavs,Turkic people and some Iranian speaking populations...

vasou
10-10-2011, 07:16 PM
Northern Greeks look more slavic than other Greeks.About Albanian heritage,yes.Even heroes of the famous "1821" were Albanians(Arvanite),like Kollokotroni.
Wrong. Nothern Greeks do not look Slavic at all. There is a big percentage of Pontic Greeks, or Pontic descent, and their looks are nothing like Slavs.
I agree Greeks generally won't strike you instantly as Greek but the stereotypical Dinarid phenotype of the Balkans is less common in Greece, I believe. That is the difference I was going off.
I don't know if I am mistaken or not, but when I hear ''Dinaric'', I automatically think of the ''flat'' back of the head. Is that true?
If yes, there are hardly Greeks like that , except some in Ioannina and Epirus, and I guess those are Arvanites.

Apokalypso
10-18-2011, 03:49 AM
Wrong. Nothern Greeks do not look Slavic at all. There is a big percentage of Pontic Greeks, or Pontic descent, and their looks are nothing like Slavs.

Indeed, modern inhabitants of Egejska Macedonia by large are descendants of Asian Greeks who were resettled as result of the population exchange between Greece and Turkey. A lot of them have little to nothing to do with Macedonia.

I don't know if I am mistaken or not, but when I hear ''Dinaric'', I automatically think of the ''flat'' back of the head. Is that true?
If yes, there are hardly Greeks like that , except some in Ioannina and Epirus, and I guess those are Arvanites.

Having a flat occipital lobe is one of the features, yes but not all Dinarids have it nor do many Slavs. Slavs are quite diverse in looks.

safinator
11-23-2011, 04:29 PM
Albanians and Greeks, despite the fact that both groups deny it, do look very close.
Not exactly.

Geometra Calboni
11-23-2011, 04:43 PM
Most of the Greek population has Near Eastern DNA markers.
So do the British and the French (R1b, H). :rolleyes:

vasou
11-29-2011, 04:20 PM
2. If anything, central Greece was repopulated by Albanians : Athens was Albanian-speaking before being the capital of independent Greece.

But that time,Athen's population was about 4.000. Now Athens population is almost a million, and if we include the whole Metropolitan area is almost half of Greece's population (5 millions)
The rapid increase of Athen's population was due to massive movement to Athens, as it became the capital of Greece, and started to get industrialiazed.
Arvanites/Albanians have mostly re-located to Central Greece like Thebes, where there are Arvanite populations.

I don't agree...Greeks look really dark,except the ones from Northern Greece(Slav hybrids).I think non-Slav mixed Greeks look like a line between SE Europe and Levant.

I guess you haven't been to Greece, especially to Macedonia.:lol:

Macedonia and Thrace have mostly ''dark'' Greeks, and not Slavik looking. (most likely darker than mainland Greeks) The are Asia Minor and Pontic refugees, if anything.

Thrace, on the other hand, has a considerable amount of Pomaks , who are lighter. Not really ''Slavic looking'' but lighter than the rest of Macedonian and Thrace.

''Non-Slav mixed Greek'' looks, vary. You can find from redheads to blonde, to dark, and brunettes.
The fact that there are fair greeks doesn't mean that they are mixed with Slavs. Ionian islands are in generally lighter (in hair and eye colors) , and they have no Slavic mixing.

Albanians and Greeks, despite the fact that both groups deny it, do look very close.

They don't. Albanians are generally Dinaric, while Greeks (generally) are not.
I agree Greeks generally won't strike you instantly as Greek but the stereotypical Dinarid phenotype of the Balkans is less common in Greece, I believe. That is the difference I was going off.


Exactly:thumbsup:

Apokalypso
11-29-2011, 11:02 PM
Hellenized Macedonian:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__wLlYH0RaJw/SFyzsQpWgcI/AAAAAAAACQQ/lsqBTrxwyBQ/s400/greek-girl.jpg

A tragedy...

vasou
11-29-2011, 11:31 PM
A beautiful Greek woman.
Albano-Bulgarians from Fyrom, the best you can do, is to stay wannabe-Greeks.:lol:

Satyr
11-30-2011, 12:49 PM
Are today's Greeks in Greece partially Avar?(Turkic+Slavic?)
In a Turkish political newspaper called TürkSolu(Turkish Left),a historician author,Prof.Dr.Şener Üşümezsoy wrote something about that.

I stopped reading here.

safinator
09-28-2012, 01:48 PM
Yes but not to that large degree people think.