[Colin Wilson]

Archaicness could be an argument for a south black sea origin of proto Greek???

An endangered Greek dialect which is spoken in north-eastern Turkey has been identified by researchers as a "linguistic goldmine" because of its startling closeness to the ancient language, as Cambridge researcher Dr Ioanna Sitaridou explains.

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[Berossus]

Originally Posted by Colin Wilson

Archaicness could be an argument for a south black sea origin of proto Greek???

I think that it might rather be a result of isolation from the main developments of modern Greek.

[Colin Wilson]

Originally Posted by Berossus

I think that it might rather be a result of isolation from the main developments of modern Greek.

Yes, that's a possibility, however the linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanonv proposes a south black sea origin for proto Greek under the light of proto Greek/proto Kartvelian as well as Greek-Armeno-Aryan linguistic contacts.
I would quote later

[Berossus]

Originally Posted by Colin Wilson

Yes, that's a possibility, however the linguists Gamkrelidze and Ivanonv proposes a south black sea origin for proto Greek under the light of proto Greek/proto Kartvelian as well as Greek-Armeno-Aryan linguistic contacts.
I would quote later

Interesting. I would be happy to read more on the subject if you post it. But I would be skeptical of any connection of Pontic Greek and the origins of proto-Greek because, IIRC, the Pontus area was Hellenized during historical times.

[Colin Wilson]

Originally Posted by Berossus

Interesting. I would be happy to read more on the subject if you post it. But I would be skeptical of any connection of Pontic Greek and the origins of proto-Greek because, IIRC, the Pontus area was Hellenized during historical times.

The problem is that as early as historical account beguns there was Greek speaking communities in southern shores of black sea.

[Berossus]

Originally Posted by Colin Wilson

The problem is that as early as historical account beguns there was Greek speaking communities in southern shores of black sea.

But the early Greek settlements are generally referred to as colonies founded by mainland Greeks, are they not? For example, I thought that Sinope was founded by Greeks from Miletus, and that is one of the earliest Greek settlements mentioned on the Black Sea shore.

[Colin Wilson]

Originally Posted by Berossus

But the early Greek settlements are generally referred to as colonies founded by mainland Greeks, are they not? For example, I thought that Sinope was founded by Greeks from Miletus, and that is one of the earliest Greek settlements mentioned on the Black Sea shore.

The authors were referring to greek speaking communities further east, anyway I dont remember well so I have to wait until quoting from the book.

[Chupa Chups]

If Pontic Greek is that close to the ancient language , then it just indicates that the Hellenic migration towards the region might be very old.

[Colin Wilson]

The authors were referring to greek speaking communities further east, anyway I dont remember well so I have to wait until quoting from the book

The Greek migration to mainland Greece from the east. GreekKartvelian
lexical ties and the myth of the Argonauts
The hypothesis of a Greek migration to the Aegean islands and mainland Greece
from the east via Asia Minor also explains the existence in Greek of a lexical
stratum of Kartvelian (South Caucasian) origin. A number of Greek words of
unknown etymology find unambiguous Kartvelian parallels in the light of recent
research (see Gordesiani 1 969, 1 970:217ff., Furnee 1 979) and testify to linguistic
contacts at an ancient date between Greek and Kartvelian dialects (Furnee
1 979: 1 4ff.).
Gk. 6sprion ' vegetables with hulls or pods; fruits; beans' beside Geo. osp'-i,
osp'n-i 'lentils' (without correspondences in the other Kartvelian languages).
Gk. khedropa (pl.), khMrops (sg.) 'vegetables with hulls or pods' : cf. Kartv.
*q1}d-(u)r- : Geo. qndur-i 'beans ' , Svan yeder id. (Greek adds a suffix -op-; cf.
khedria = khedropa, without the suffix). Note the reflex of Kartv. *1} as e in
Greek, as in Svan.
Gk. iskluis 'spurge, euphorbia ' (Euphorbia L.): cf. Kartv. *(T[l)sx-al-: Geo.
(m)sxal-i 'pear' , Mingr. sxul-i, Laz mcxul-i, Svan icx id. (the borrowed Greek
form has a prothetic i- before the cluster skh-).
Gk. dellis (in an inscription from Pisidia in southern Asia Minor, first
century B.C.) = delphaks 'piglet' : cf. Geo. tel-i 'piglet', Mingr. tu, Laz tila id.
(Kartv. *tel-).
Gk. agar · aetas . Kuprioi (Hesychius) ' eagle' : Kartv. *kor- 'hawk' : Geo.
kor-i, Mingr. kir-i, Laz kur-i, m-kir-i (with prothetic a- in the Greek form).
Gk. uiros 'bird of prey' : cf. Geo. 3er-i, 3era 'kite' (with no correspondences
elsewhere in Kartvelian); the Greek form has a, the vocalism that would be
expected for the Proto-Kartvelian word in its western variant, where the vowel
shift of *e to *a had already taken place.
Gk. gana . khersos . ge (Hesychius) ' dry land, earth' : Kartv. *q'ana-: Geo.
q 'ana 'field, earth' , Mingr. 'ona, Laz q'ona id.
Gk. spherta . ta aphora dendra (Hesychius) ' tree that does not yield fruit,
barren tree ' : cf. Kartv. *berc' -/*barc' - 'barren' : Geo. berc'-i, Mingr. burc'-i
(the Greek initial s- must then be regarded as a later expressive accretion).
Gk. eskharii 'hearth; fire in hearth; altar', Myc. e-ka-ra: cf. Kartv. *cx'
bum, give off heat' , *je-cx-l- 'fire' : Geo. cx- ' give off heat, bake ' , cx-el- ' hot' ,
cx-ar- 'hot, spicy; get excited, angry ' , cecxl-i 'fire ' ; Mingr.-Laz cxe 'hot',
dacxir-i, dacxur-i 'fire'; Svan sx- 'burn, set fire ' (the initial e- of the Greek
form is then a prothetic vowel added in Greek).
Gk. * guii 'bend, distortion, bulge' (cf. gues 'bend of plow' > 'arable land' ,
gualon 'bulge, protuberance; concavity; concave plates of armor'): cf. Kartv.
*q 'ua- : Geo. q 'ua 'back; protuberant part (of tool, boat) ' , Svan q 'u(w)a id.,
Mingr. 'va, Laz q'va, k'va 'forehead' .
Gk. *maskhaLe 'underarm; shoulder' and the related male id. (only in the
expression hupo males ' secretly, by stealth'): cf. Kartv. *1Jlqar- ' shoulder' : Geo.
mxar-i, Mingr. xU3-i, Laz mxu3-i, Svan meqiir (with expressive diminutive
alternation in Greek: -skh- instead of -kh-).
Gk. dagklon . drepanon (Hesychius) ' sickle, scythe, curved knife ' , zagklon
id., zagklion = skolian ' curved, bent' : cf. Geo. i-daq'v-i, ni-daq'v-i, dlaq'v-i
' elbow' , Mingr. du'-i, Laz duq'u, durq'u id.
Gk. h ilbos ' hump, hillock ' , huMs 'hunchbacked, bent' : cf. Geo. ube
'protuberance, bosom ' , Mingr. (l)uba, Laz uba, oba id.
Gk. daidall6 ' (I) finish, trim skilfully, work, decorate' , daidalos ' skilfully,
masterfully finished' (Horn. poludafdalos), with expressive reduplication, from
*dai-dal- < *dal-dal-(?); cf. Kartv. *tal-/*tl- : Geo. tl-/tal- 'cut, work (wood,
stone), clean (fruits)" Mingr. tol- id.
Gk. nass6, Alt. natt6, aor. (Horn.) enakse, perf. mid. nenasmai ' (I) squeeze,
trample, crush' (*nag-): cf. Geo. naq' - ' crush; pound (in mortar) ' (no correspondences
elsewhere in Kartvelian).
Gk. iskhus ' strength, power' , iskhuras ' strong, powerful' : cf. Kartv. * sxu'
be thick, large ' , *1Jl-sxw-il- ' thick, large ' : Geo. gan-sxu- ' get thick, large' ,
msxvil- 'thick, large' , Mingr. SXU, Laz (m)Cxu id. (with prothetic i- in Greek).
Gk. ulphelos, Horn. epiulphelos ' strong, ardent, hot ' : cf. Geo. m-3apr-i
' strong, sharp, intense, bitter, fierce ' (no correspondences elsewhere in
Kartvelian).
Gk. zaroun . katheUdein (Hesychius) 'rest, lie, sleep' ; the original base would
be zan-, which can clearly be related to Proto-Kartvelian *3en-/*3in- ' lie, sleep'
(cf. Geo. m-3in-av-s ' (1) sleep ' , Laz di-!in-u ' went to bed') in its western
variant with *a vocalism: *!an- (cf. Mingr. !an-u(n), Laz !an-s 'lies').
Gk. dauo '(1) sleep' , edause . ekoimithe (Hesychius): cf. Kartv. *dew-/*dw'
lie; lay, put ' , with *a vocalism in full grade *daw-, which would have been
characteristic of the West Kartvelian dialect area (with later expansion of the
zero-grade form *dw- to the entire paradigm in Mingrelian and Laz): see
Gamkrelidze and Ma��avariani 1 965:221 -22).
Gk. gameo '(1) get married ' , Horn. gamos 'wedding, marriage' ; gambros
' affinal relative; sister's husband, wife's brother', and others: cf. Kartv. * km-ar'
husband' : Geo. kmar-i 'husband' , Mingr. komon!-i, Laz komo!-i id.
Gk. oar 'wife ' (from *owar?), whence oar{zo ' (1) court, pay compliments to,
am in intimate relations with' : cf. Kartv. *q 'war- : Geo. q 'var- ' love', Mingr.
'or-, Laz (q')or- id.
Gk. baskein . kakologe{n (Hesychius) ' talk badly, talk scandal, bewitch,
slander' , baskanos ' invidious, slanderer' : cf. Kartv. *befy-/*ba3Y- : Geo. bezy'
report, tell on, slander' , Mingr. ber!y-el- ' shout', Laz berr- ' get angry; scold,
swear' (the Greek form obviously reflects the Proto-Kartvelian stem with West
Kartvelian *a vocalism).
Gk. akma · neste{a, endeia (Hesychius) 'fasting; insufficiency, need', akmenos
' one who has not eaten' : cf. Kartv. *q 'm- 'hunger; be hungry, starve' : Geo.
si-q'm-il-i 'hunger' , Mingr. 'um-en-i, Laz (q ')om-in- ' thirst' , Svan q 'm- 'be
hungry, starve' (the Greek form has prothetic a-).
Gk. kullaios . b6strukhos (Hesychius) 'locks, curls ' : cf. Geo. k'ul-ul-i id. (no
correspondences elsewhere in Kartvelian).
Gk. godan . kla{ein (Hesychius) ' sob, cry, bewail', cf. Geo. god-eb-a 'wail,
crying' (without correspondences elsewhere in Kartvelian).
Gk. * tados 'wish, desire', presumed stem for Horn. epitedes, Dor. epitiides
' with the intention, with the purpose, on purpose ' , hence epitedeuo ' (1) try, look
after, take care to, do intentionally' : cf. Kartv. *c'ad- ' wish, desire' : Geo. c'ad'
wish, be eager' , c 'ad-i/-i ' wish, desire ' , Svan hadw ' wish, want ' . This set is
highly problematic.
The numerous lexical resemblances between Greek and Kartvelian, found
precisely among the 'pre-Greek' words of non-Indo-European origin,21 are to
be interpreted as showing that a number of Kartvelian words were borrowed by
Greek while the Greek and Kartvelian tribes were in contact somewhere in the
Near East during the Greek migrations from the pro to-homeland westward to
historical Greek territory. On the other hand, some of the forms mentioned in
11. 1 1 .3.3 as Proto-Indo-European words in Kartvelian could equally well be
attributed to Greek and regarded as prehistoric borrowings from Greek into
Kartvelian. They would then show that the Greek-Kartvelian borrowings went
in both directions. An example is Kartv. *km-ar-/*kT[l-r- 'husband' beside Gk.
gambr6s 'daughter's husband' .
The same Greek-Kartvelian historical contacts may be reflected i n the wellknown
Greek myth of the Argonauts. The oldest stratum of this myth, which
tells of the arrival of Phrixos on a flying ram and a fleece hanging in a sacred
oak tree, reflects the arrival of the Greeks in Colchis in the second millennium
B .C. (see Lordkipanidze 1 979). The custom of placing a ram' s fleece
in a sacred tree (an oak in particular) was preserved among the western Kartvelian
tribes until recent times (see Bendukidze 1 97 3 , Popko 1 974:228-29,
1 978: 1 1 4ff.) , and goes back to a ritual shared throughout this area, including
northern Asia Minor, of placing a sacral ram's fleece in a sacred tree (cf. the
tree GISeya-22 in Hittite ritual tradition: see 11.3. 1 .4.4).
Late versions of the myth of Jason (Gk. lasi5n, lisi5n) and the Argo (Gk.
Arg6: Odyssey 1 2:70) would seem to suggest that the Greeks first arrived in
Colchis from mainland Greece by a sea route through the Sea of Marmara, the
Bosporus, the Dardanelles, and the Black Sea. However, such a route is
implausible for that time, since the Sea of Marmara (the ancient Propontis, i.e.
'before the Black Sea') was not navigable in antiquity.23
The possibility remains of an overland entry of the Greeks into Colchis, or
more generally the Transcaucasus. A northward route to the Black Sea coast of
the Transcaucasus, in the course of the overall westward migration from the
Indo-European homeland, would have provided such an entry. It is there that
the Greek tribes could have come into contact with Kartvelian, specifically
western Kartvelian, tribes who had already moved to the coastal regions of the
Transcaucasus. The western Kartvelians apparently called their country Arg(o),
as can be inferred from the self-designation of the western Kartvelian tribes,
m-arg-al-i ' Mingrelian' , i.e. ' inhabitant of Arg-' (cf. the Georgian name for
western Georgia, Egr-is-i). This name may explain why in later versions of the
myth the Greeks who visited Colchis in search of the golden fleece are called
Argonauts, i.e. 'sailors who have been in the land of Arg(o)' (S. S. Dzikija,
p.c.). Subsequently this word, which originally referred to the ' land of the
golden fleece' , was reinterpreted as the name of the center of the Doric tribal
confederation Argos, which took part in the historical migration of the Doric
tribes. One of their sacred cultic regions continued to be the place Argo[(s
(Beyen and Vollgraff 1 947), a name highly reminiscent of the western Kartvelian
self-designation. 24 All this gives reason to assume that the Doric tribes
were among the Greeks who moved northward to Colchis and that they
preserved the memory of their stay in the land of Arg(o), continuing to apply
this name (which has no Greek etymology) to their later cult centers.
The second component -nautcs ' sailor' of the mythic name Argonaut must
have been the result of later reinterpretation of the myth as the legend of a sea
voyage to Colchis on a ship named Argo. This reinterpretation would have
become possible after a sea route from mainland Greece to the Black Sea coast
was established in historical times.
The basic Greek word for 'fleece ', koas, pI. k6ea (also used of the golden
fleece), has no satisfactory Indo-European etymology (see Chantraine 1 968-
1 974:1.604) and must be regarded as a foreign borrowing. It appears in the
earliest versions of the myth of the Argonauts and is attested in Homer (Iliad
9:66 1 , Odyssey 3:38 et pass.) and even earlier in Mycenean texts as ko-wo (i.e.
k6wos = Gk. koas: see Morpurgo 1 963 : 1 66), with preservation of the intervocalic
-w- lost in Greek. This Greek word, reconstructed as *kow-a/o-, can be
regarded as a borrowing from Kartv. *t'q'aw-/*t'q 'ow- (Geo. t'q 'av-i 'hide, pelt,
skin' , Mingr.-Laz t'q'eb-i/t'k'eb-i id. from *t 'q'ob-i/*t'k'ob-i);25 Greek simplifies
the Kartvelian initial cluster t'q'- to k- and reflects the western Kartvelian
(Zan) *0 vocalism. This Greek alteration of the word follows regular laws
affecting initial consonant clusters. In this instance it involved not metathesis,
which occurs in most native Indo-European words in Greek (see 1.2.6.4), but
simplification analogous to forms such as Gk. kaino '(I) kill' beside kteino id.26
Dating the origin of the myth of the Argonauts and the golden fleece to the
second millennium B.C. is consistent with the evidence of the other Greek word
for 'hide, pelt, fleece ' , bursa, an apparent loan of Hitt. kur!a- with the ritual
meaning 'fleece ' , 'fleece of the Defender god' (LAMA KUSkur!a!: Popko
1 974:226; attested in texts from cultic centers of northern Asia Minor in the
Hattic area: the purulli- ritual, the myth of Telepinus, etc . : cf. Haas 1 978).27
This is one more confinnation of early contacts of the Greek tribes with nonGreek
groups in northern Asia Minor and the Transcaucasus.28

Proto-Kartvelian (South Caucasian) dates to the fourth to third millennia B.C.
Glottochronological evidence puts the beginning of its differentiation in the very early second
millennium B.C. (and possibly much earlier), at which time Svan separated out and ProtoKartvelian
divided into two separate areas, Svan and Georgian-Zan, the latter subsequently
splitting into Georgian and Zan (or Colchidian): see Gamkrelidze and Ma��avariani 1965:17.
Proto-Kartvelian prior to its breakup must be placed, on the evidence of archaic lexical
and toponymic data, in the mountainous regions of the western and central part of the Little
Caucasus (the Transcaucasian foothills). The first wave of Kartvelian migrations to the west and
northwest, in the direction of the Colchidian plains, must have begun with one of the western
dialects in the third millennium B.C. and led to the formation of Svan, which spread to the
western Transcaucasus and was superimposed on local languages, probably of the Northwest
Caucasian type, which thus became substratal to Svan. Svan was gradually displaced to the
north, to the Great Caucasus range, by the next wave of migrations, which occurred approximately
nine centuries later (on glottochronological evidence) and removed the westernmost
remaining dialect as far as the Black Sea coast. This western dialect gave rise to the later
Colchidian - or Zan, or Mingrelian-Laz - language, one of the languages of ancient Colchis.
The dialects which remained in the ancient Kartvelian homeland underlie Georgian. In
historical times, speakers of Georgian spread to the west, to part of the Colchidian territory,
splitting the Colchidian language into two dialects and setting up the development of Mingrelian
and Laz (Ch an} into independent languages. They also spread to the north and northeast,
displacing languages of the Northeast Caucasian type.
These Kartvelian migrations triggered the breakup of Proto-Kartvelian and the expansion
of its dialects beyond the original territory.

Some Semitic loanwords into the Aryano-Greco-Armenian group:

PIE * phelekhu- 'poleaxe, axe' : Sem. *p-I-k ' split apart; axe ' : Akkad.pilaku 'axe', pulluku 'kill with an axe)', Syr. pelka 'axe ',Mand. pfna ' axe' , Arab. falaqa ' split apart':
(The word has an unusual root structure not typical of native IndoEuropean forms) The Semitic word entered the Greek-Armenian-Aryan dialect group and subsequently underwent regular development in these dialects,showing the characteristic satem reflex of palatal *kh in Indo-Iranian.

PIE *Handh- 'edible plant' (Skt. andha- 'plant from which soma was made',Gk. anthos 'flower', anthinon 'vegetable food, lotus', Arm. and 'field ') :Sem. *Hint-(at-) 'wheat, grains' (): Ugar. /htt 'wheat', Akkad. (Babyl.)hetu 'barley grain', (Assyr.) uhutu 'grain crops; grain', Arab. Hinta 'wheat', S.Arab. (Soqotri) /hinteh, (Mehri) 'wheat'
The Indo-European word is restricted to the GreekArmenian-Aryan dialect area and testifies to contact between this dialect group and the Semitic linguistic world in some part of the Near East

we can see the ancient presence of the Greeks in Miletus and Ahhiyawa as a relic of these early migrations. Support for this comes from links observed between the cultures of western Asia Minor and those of the Peloponnesus and the Aegean islands. Minyan gray ware pottery is found through northwest Asia Minor Beycesultan). It is the same type that becomes the dominant ware in mainland Greece about a century later (ca. 1 900 B.c.). A direct connection has been established between these cultures, and the direction of movement is assumed to have been from east to west (Mellaart Lloyd )
The ethnic substratum of these cultures would have been the Proto-Hellenic Greeks (minus the Dorians),or possibly other groups of lndo-Europeans moving westward1 with the Greeks under pressure from the Anatolian tribes.

The historical presence of the Greeks in Asia Minor after the breakup of Greek-Armenian-Aryan dialect unity is reflected in numerous lexical and culturehistorical connections between Greek and the linguistic world of Asia Minor.

Traces of these connections can be seen in lexical loans and in shared mythological and ritual themes that arose at a time when Greek already existed as a separate language.

Phrygian and its relation to the Greek-Armenian-Aryan dialect community Phrygian is known to us from a few inscriptions of the first half of the first millennium B.c., found in Asia Minor. It shows structural traits that link it with the dialects of the Greek-Armenian-Aryan area....Balkan culture in the fifth to fourth millennia B.C. and its connection with Asia Minor (çatal Hüyük)A Near Eastern homeland for Proto-Indo-European requires relatively little movement of Proto-Armenian, which remained in Asia Minor where it could have come into contact with the Anatolian linguistic world. From there the Proto-Armenians spread to historical Armenia and overlaid a Hurrian-Urartean substratum (see Diakonoff).
Contacts of Proto-Armenian with Hittite and Luwian are confirmed by a number of Armenian borrowings from the Anatolian languages.