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View Poll Results: Who looks most like them, as a rule, outside of their own area?
Northwest Europeans (Brits, Scandinavians, Dutch) 3 5.66%
Spaniards or Portuguese 5 9.43%
Greeks 32 60.38%
Central Europeans 0 0%
Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese) 10 18.87%
Caucasians (Armenians, Georgians) 1 1.89%
North Africans (Berbers) 2 3.77%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Southern Italians & Sicilians; who looks most like them? 
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:30 PM   Post #411
Geometra Calboni
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Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
As far as the Greek bit goes... when my Sicilian-American relatives go to Greek festivals in the area, whenever one of them is mistaken for/spoken to in Greek and they say "I'm Sicilian not Greek", the Greek person will be like "Without us you wouldn't be here", "You're pretty much one of us", "You have Greek in you too!" or something similar. So it's not just anthrofora Sicilian Americans who do it.. Greeks claim them too.
Alright then, Southern Italians should be told by Greeks (better, by American Greeks) how to feel.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:39 PM   Post #412
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I have noticed though that people of Sicilian descent who identify specifically as "Sicilian" as opposed to "Italian" are the ones more likely to embrace historical Greek, Phoenician, etc. roots.

I don't get why it would shock you if Sicilian (Americans) want to identify with Greeks. Let's look at a few things;

1) The Greeks were the only historical population who were settlers more than conquerors there. Normans, Moors, Phoenicians, Romans, Spaniards, etc. were not settlers, they were conquerors who contributed probably little to the genome if at all. Only the pre-Greek populations (Elymians, Sicels, etc.), Neolithic migrants, and the Greeks probably contributed anything worth mention.

2) The majority of the achievements Sicilians would be proud of come from their society as part of Ancient Greece (i.e. Archimedes, Syracuse, mythology, the temples on the island, etc). Since it's been part of Italy, at least, the island has been probably poorer than it had ever previously been.

Last edited by Sikeliot; 05-04-2012 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:41 PM   Post #413
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Wait, you have also Greek fascists ROTFLMAO
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Currently, land that is not part of Greece and historically should be is the island of Sicily currently held by Italy, the boot of Italy, Northern Epirus in Southern Albania, the 15% of Macedonia currently held by Bulgaria and FYROM, Cyprus who are not able to join Greece because of Turkish and International pressures, the Orthodox capital of Constantinople held by Turkey, the whole Wetsern coast of Turkey including the city of Smyrna, and the Northern Coast of Turkey on the Black Sea which includes the lands of Pontus.

These are how the true borders of Greece should like, and the Greek diaspora in Turkey and Cyprus still face persecution and herassment in the present day. Turkey claims to be up to EU standards and treats each civilian as equal as the Turks, but this is not the truth as the Greeks who still fight to live in their lands face persecution by the Turks. The Greeks of Albania and FYROM and treated like second class citizens and struggle not to migrate to motherland-Greece because of pressures from the people of FYROM and Albania. Currently the Greeks of mainland Italy and Sicily are struggling to keep there language, culture and traditions alive from the Italian assimilation imposed on them. Our brothers keep fighting hard for what will eventually eventuate into the Greater Greece bordered by the Greater Serbia.

http://greeknationalist.bravehost.co...terGreece.html
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:44 PM   Post #414
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Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
2) Little of historical/cultural worth has resulted from the island since the times of Ancient Greece. Since it's been part of Italy, at least, the island has been probably poorer than it had ever previously been.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:46 PM   Post #415
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Just let people identify with whatever they want to identify as. Besides, no Sicilian here has ever said they're "Greek", just that they value their Ancient Greek roots, as they should. As a people who are stereotyped by Americans as criminals and Mafia members, identifying with Ancient Greece seems like an alternative that will make people think twice about viewing them as unproductive criminals.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:48 PM   Post #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
I have noticed though that people of Sicilian descent who identify specifically as "Sicilian" as opposed to "Italian" are the ones more likely to embrace historical Greek, Phoenician, etc. roots.

I don't get why it would shock you if Sicilian (Americans) want to identify with Greeks. Let's look at a few things;

1) The Greeks were the only historical population who were settlers more than conquerors there. Normans, Moors, Phoenicians, Romans, Spaniards, etc. were not settlers, they were conquerors who contributed probably little to the genome if at all. Only the pre-Greek populations (Elymians, Sicels, etc.), Neolithic migrants, and the Greeks probably contributed anything worth mention.

2) Little of historical/cultural worth has resulted from the island since the times of Ancient Greece. Since it's been part of Italy, at least, the island has been probably poorer than it had ever previously been.
Normans, Phoenicians and Romans conquerors?
Normans were called first to protect pilgrims, then used as mercenaries, Phoenicians were maritime traders, and Romans were as much conquerors in Sicily as well as they were just outside of their latin village as soon as they started to grow a conqueror mentality.

As for the "little historical\cultural worth of Sicily" it's better you stick to think to what Iberia produced when Sicily was contributing to create the language of Dante's divine comedy.
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Last edited by cicerone; 05-04-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:51 PM   Post #417
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What I should have said isn't lack of cultural worth.. but that the things that Sicily has most to be proud of are Archimedes, the Greek temples they built, the achievements of Syracuse, their presence in ancient mythology, etc.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:56 PM   Post #418
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it's better you stick to think to what Iberia produced when Sicily was contributing to create the language of Dante's divine comedy.
Italian as we know it comes from Tuscany.
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:05 PM   Post #419
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Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
Italian as we know it comes from Tuscany.
Ever heard of the Sicilian School? If not, wikipedia is your friend, time for some education:

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The standard of the Sicilian school combines many traits typical of the Sicilian, Latin, Provençal and to a lesser, but not negligible extent, Apulian and certain southern dialects. Such a melting pot greatly helped the new Italian language: the Provençal suffixes -ière and -ce, for example, generated hundreds of new Italian words in -iera and -za as it. riv-iera ("river") or costan-za ("constancy"). Such affixes would be then adopted by Dante and his contemporaries, and handed on to future generations of Italian writers. Dante's styles illustre, cardinale, aulico, curiale were partly developed from his close study of the Sicilian School which he quotes widely in his studies, especially in his De Vulgari Eloquentia. The Sicilian school was later re-founded by Guittone d'Arezzo in Tuscany following the death of Manfredi, Frederick's son, so many of these poems were later copied in manuscripts that widely circulated in Florence. This first standard in which they were written, was, however, modified in Tuscany. In fact, Tuscan scriveners perceived the five-vowel system used by southern Italian dialects (i, e, a, o, u) as a seven-vowel one (i, é, è, a, ó, ò, u). As a consequence, the Italian texts may contain lines that no longer rhyme with each other (sic. -i > tusc. -é, sic. -u > tusc. -ó). Tuscans also changed words as gloria [pron. glòreea] to ghiora, aju [pron. àyoo] ("I have) to aggio [pron. adjo] etc. Though some original texts have been restored to their original Sicilian, we must see such remakes only as tentative reconstructions of originals that, unfortunately, may have been lost forever. Dante and his contemporaries would take this newborn language a step further, expanding and enriching it with even more words of Latin and Florentine origin, carefully working on the style to create volgare illustre, a higher standard quite close to today's polite Italian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_School
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:07 PM   Post #420
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Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
I have noticed though that people of Sicilian descent who identify specifically as "Sicilian" as opposed to "Italian" are the ones more likely to embrace historical Greek, Phoenician, etc. roots.
Let's be clear. Vanillaglorilla referred to the Southern Italians at large, not specifically to the Sicilians. Having said that, the modern Sicilians usually don't feel any real connection to the modern Greeks either and this kind of affiliation seems to be felt much more strongly on the other side of the Atlantic.

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Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
Normans, Moors, Phoenicians, Romans, Spaniards, etc. were not settlers, they were conquerors who contributed probably little to the genome if at all.
Source? About 1/3 of the Sicilian y-dna is R1b and most of it belongs to a subclade common in mainland Italy but not in Greece. This leads me to suppose that the mainland Italians from the time of the Roman empire to today have left quite an important genetic footprint in Sicily.

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Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
Since it's been part of Italy, at least, the island has been probably poorer than it had ever previously been.
I'm sure that they would be better off now if they were still part of Greece...

Last edited by Geometra Calboni; 05-04-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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