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What was the "real amount" of the Indo-European genetical and cultural input in Europe? 
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:00 PM   Post #1
Colin Wilson
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Question What was the "real amount" of the Indo-European genetical and cultural input in Europe?

Nowadays, except some Vasconic and Uralic pockets, Europe is completly Indo-European speaking, but some 2000-2500 years ago that was not the case.
According to both the Indian, Anatolian, Ukrainian, Levantine and Armenian models (ie all the challenging indo-european urheimat hypotheses) the linguistic indo-europeanisation of the core European continent (putting aside Ukraine steppes-oddly enough the old toponyms and hydronyms of that supposed indo-european urheimat are indo-aryan when it's expected to have proto indo-european ones, and the in same time Gamkrelidze, in his book, has given examples of proto indo-european toponyms in Anatolia and Levant) is essentially a late bronze age and historical process, beginning perhaps as late as 5000 BC for the eastern parts and the balkans and advancing slowly but surely up to 3000 BC with the possible appearence of Celts in Central Europe and continuing with the complete indo-europeanisation of western Europe by the end of the first millenium BC.
Map of pre indo-european Europe


Was the indo-europeanisation of Europe a result of language repalcement with minor genetical (and also minor cultural-except language) input or a result of "folk replacement"?
It's most likely the former ie a process of a language shift, since some indo-european "hordes" could not change dramatically the genetic landscape of Europe which was strongly populated by waves of middle eastern neolithic newcomer farmers (hg R1b).
We could think that in a (from now on) centralised entity, local European farmers adopted a creolised form of the indo-european militarily ruling class to use as a lingua franca in order to communicate with both the newcomers and their own "brothers" who already use differentiated sister (but somehow more-even if distantly-interconnected languages and dialects).[of course Indo-European languages are much more distant than all the "original" languages)
But the phonology, syntaxe, grammar influenced the newly formed dialects and some high culture alongside some primary vocabulary of the original languages made their way through calque, borrowing etc...to the new formed languages, but since (normally) it's the ruling elite language/dialect which would be written, we could not know much about the "folk" languages.

Another difficulty lays in the fact (if I'm not mistaken) that the majority of Europeans by now are non tribalised (and perhaps most of them were never so, whereas the original proto indo-european were tribalised ones) but when we look at patriarchal folks like Kurds, Arabs, Berbers, Assyrians, Pashtuns, Indo-Aryans, Somalis...we'll see that they are tribalised folks (and thus we could perhaps suggest that they are "original-non assimilated-kurd, arab etc...")

As for the culture, it seems that very few of the original ancient indo-european culture, traditions, myths, religions, moral norms are retained amongst today's Europeans, while those cultural features are still strongly observed amongst Indo-Aryans and to a lesser extent Kurds, Pashtuns and even amongst Arabs (even if they are not indo-european speaking).
To understand that statement, I recommand you to read "Indo-Europeans and Indo-European languages" book of Gamkrelidze+Ivanov.
For example ones of the "cultural features" of the proto indo-europeans still seen nowadays amongst Kurds and some Arabs are: polygamy, bride kidnapping, berdel marriage ("sister swapping").

For the genetics, first of all, there is no hg typically Semitic or typically indo-european.
For example R1b hg in Africa is Afrasanic but R1b in Europe is (most likely) "Aquitano-Vasco-Tartesso-Ibero-Etrusco-Substraticpicto-Liguro-Hatto-Hurru-Urartic".
E hg in Europe is (probably) indo-european but it's Afrasanic in north and eastern Africa and Niger-Kongo in western Africa.

Actually, the Vasconic languages of western Europe are more close to Chinese than to the whole Nostratic macro family (Indo-Europeanic+Uralic+Altaic+Afrasanic+Dravidic+Kartve lic) let alone than to Indo-Europeanic alone, in fact according to Nostraticists Niger-Kordofanian languages (probably the result of middle eastern E hg men mixed with local African women or/and of a sprachbund-without much middleastern genetical input-from the middle east) are rather close to the Nostratic(perhaps a more accurate name would be afrasoropic or middle eastern late mesolithic ancestral proto language)languages.(see Merrit Ruhlen works)


Finally, I should add that for demographical reasons (Agricultural Anatolia being by far much more overpopulated than steppic transhumant pontic steppes) and for the fauna and flaura of the proto indo-european which does not fit in Ukraine (see Dolgopolsky and Gamkrelidze&Ivanov) and for the presence in proto Indo-European of Sumerian, Egyptian, Semitic, Hattic, Kartvelian and Hurric loanwords (see Bomhard and Gamkrelidze&Ivanov) and for the great morphogrammatical similarities of proto indo-european with afro-asiatic (see Bomhard, Hodge, Levin and Brunner) and also lexical ones[for example proto indo-european *hes (to be) with proto afro-asiatic *yes (to be), proto indo-european *na (no) with proto afro-asiatic *na' (no), proto indo-european *egho (I) with proto afro-asiatic *(an)aku and hundreds of other cognates..., please see the linguistic sub-forum], the urheimat of Proto Indo-European is most likely in the middle east and not India or Pontic steppes.

Last edited by Colin Wilson; 07-01-2010 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:55 PM   Post #2
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Sorry the thread title should be:
What was the "real amount" of the indo-european genetical and cultural input in Europe?
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:57 PM   Post #3
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Quote:
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Sorry the thread title should be:
What was the "real amount" of the indo-european genetical and cultural input in Europe?
Fixed.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:08 PM   Post #4
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:24 PM   Post #5
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To answer the title of this thread; The amount of Indo-European genetic input can be compared to the amount of genetic input left by Turkic speaking nomads. Kipchaks, Bulgars, Avars, Huns, Pechenegs & Magyars left little to no genetic foot prints, the same can be said about Indo-Europeans. No one has a sample of authentic Indo-European Dna that we can compare other Dna to. There's just no definition because Indo-European seems to be a cultural term more than a genetic one.

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For the genetics, first of all, there is no hg typically Semitic or typically indo-european.
I think hG of the north Caucasus might have something to do with the Indo-Europeans.
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:20 PM   Post #6
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Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
To answer the title of this thread; The amount of Indo-European genetic input can be compared to the amount of genetic input left by Turkic speaking nomads. Kipchaks, Bulgars, Avars, Huns, Pechenegs & Magyars left little to no genetic foot prints, the same can be said about Indo-Europeans. No one has a sample of authentic Indo-European Dna that we can compare other Dna to. There's just no definition because Indo-European seems to be a cultural term more than a genetic one.



I think hG of the north Caucasus might have something to do with the Indo-Europeans.
You contradict yourself in the first paragraph. How can you say that the PIE speakers left no genetic impact in Europe, but then say that no one knows what the genetic makeup of the PIE speakers was?

You can't say they left no genetic impact if you do not know what genetic markers to look for. It would be more accurate to just say that we do not know at this time.

Y-DNA G? Are you kidding me? lol Georgians are the most Indo-European people on the planet other than the fact that they do not speak an Indo-European language, according to your theory.

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Old 07-02-2010, 02:03 AM   Post #7
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Three things...

1) 99.99% of ancient remains tied to the Indo-Europeans are R1a1a.

2) Indo-European languages spread with metallurgy from Eastern Europe.

3) Horse domestication was an important part of the Indo-European expansion and mythology, but horses weren't native to the Middle East.

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Old 07-02-2010, 02:30 AM   Post #8
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I have to go with the Soul Pole on this one. Although I am not as certain that the migration started from Eastern Europe as he is, I agree with the other points. Everything points to a spread of PIE by R1a1a guys in ancient times. From the Andronovo and Corded Ware aDNA results to the presence of R1a1a in Europe, the Tarim Basin, Iran, and India.

I've seen good arguments for a connection between other Y-DNA haplogroups and the IE languages (J2a4 with Indo-Iranian, R1b1b2a1a2d3 with Celtic, etc...), but this seems to be due to contact with R1a1a populations that spoke PIE in ancient times.

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Old 07-02-2010, 02:51 AM   Post #9
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Haplogroup J was in contact in ancient times with Indo-European peoples in places like Armenia, Turkey, Greece.
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Old 07-02-2010, 02:57 AM   Post #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
You contradict yourself in the first paragraph. How can you say that the PIE speakers left no genetic impact in Europe, but then say that no one knows what the genetic makeup of the PIE speakers was?
I didn't contradict myself the least bit. You just failed to correctly interpret what I said, which is not my fault but yours.

Proto-Indo europeans probably left as much genetic impact on Europe as Magyars did to Hungary, which is very little, I don't know how I can be any clearer. & yes it's true that no one has a sample of what's proto-indo-European and what isn't because the genetic aspects of PIE's hasn't been defined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
It would be more accurate to just say that we do not know at this time.
Sure why not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
Y-DNA G? Are you kidding me? lol Georgians are the most Indo-European people on the planet other than the fact that they do not speak an Indo-European language, according to your theory.
Again you twist my text way out of proportion. I said "hG has something to do with the Indo-Europeans" & I did not say hG is Indo-European. What I was trying to say is Haplogroup G could be used to trace where the Indo-Europeans took their slaves f.e.

Secondly, If you associate hG with Georgians than you are a idiot because hG is north Caucasian, not south Caucasian.
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